In large measure, hatred of Israel is derivative of Hatred of the Jews. Yeah, Israel has killed some people in Gaza, but Americans killed hundreds of thousands of people in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia which were 10,000 miles from California. By contast, Gaza is adjacent to Israel. Gazan goons killed 1200 Jews on October 7. The West bank is 9 miles from he Med Sea. But how many air heads in the MSNBC crowd are familiar with maps.
I delinieated 9 discrete causes of anti Semitism. Most of the causes you have heard before. Some of my ideas are, I think, novel
Of course it is about land and I say this as a complete non-expert. The Gaza strip is a refugee enclave into which the dispossessed natives were pushed when European jews seized their homelands. Now, sir, was this an injustice or was it not? I guess they want their land back. That would be easy to understand, without any need to postulate backward jihadi fanaticism etc etc.
This is the same point as was made in the article above. The Palestinians believe the establishment of Israel was a great injustice, therefore they want to destroy Israel and every Jewish person in it. That's why no potential land compromise will solve the conflict.
Hi. It is good to get a reply and so much the better when they give their real name.
But Shlomo, aren't you avoiding the question yourself? If you admit the injustice you undermine the point that you make. If you don't, you have to come up with an excuse and honestly I do not think there is one. If this was chess, you are in check. I hope to hear back. Regards, Robert.
In general I try to avoid long discussions in public comments, but I'll just share one thought. Some people think the establishment of Israel was good and right and just. Others think it was a terrible injustice and the nakbah. Arguing about whether Jewish settlement in Israel beginning in the 1800s and continuing in waves since then was legal and right or not will get us nowhere now. What happened in the past is over and cannot be undone. The question is what solution will best help guarantee the rights of all the people living in Israel and the Palestinian territories today. Whether you think the great great grandparents of an Israeli child should or should not have moved to Israel doesn't matter anymore- that child has the right to grow up in peace and security, and so too for the Palestinians. Arguing about long ago injustices has to stop.
Sorry to labour the point, but you say 'Some think the establishment of Israel was good and right and just' - what reasons would they give is what I am asking.
What about our host, Mr Simons? Perhaps he should give his view?
You considered the easy option often taken to avoid answering altogether but did not take it. Good. What you said is that it might have been an injustice but it does not matter. It is similar to answers that I have had from well-known advocates in my country, which I characterise as injustice yes, regret no.
You may not think this particular injustice matters but you are very much biased. If you were a judge you would have to recuse yourself. As an advocate you are doing nothing wrong but you are giving the game away by admitting you are unconcerned about injustices down to your side. Furthermore, there is no future in this argument for you because you would be forced to say that the even worse injustices that occurred only a few years earlier also don't matter.
Justice does matter. It is the most important thing.
If you enter in the realm of injustice, why not discuss the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries which affected even more people than the Nakba did? And what about the justice to be repaired to all the Jews whose properties and wealth was seized during centuries-long persecution? At least Jews in general PURCHASED lands in Ottoman Syria-Palestine and Mandatory Palestine. Working and living on a land doesn't automatically make you the owner of it. That's true for some cases. In other cases, the Arabs were expelled by the Jews but in these instances, one should always check exactly why, what happened before? Were the Jews attacked with murderous violence by the Arabs who were then expelled from their homes and villages? I'm sure in some cases no, so okay, let's evaluate the Arabs rights to the land now Israel on a case by case basis. In yet other instances, the Arabs fled voluntarily listening to their own leaders promising a defeat of the Jewish State, that did not occur ("We will throw the Jews to the Sea and you will be able to go back to your homes") ... who started the 1948 war, remind me? The Palestinians have been suffering, but mostly due to their own mistakes. It's not victim blaming or gaslighting. I truly and wholeheartedly empathize and sympathize with the Palestinians (the ones who used to identify simply as Arabs until 1964). All Nation States are born as a result of war and land dispossession. Grow up. Take your destiny in tour hands and BUILD A STATE, INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY TRYING TO DESTROY THE STATE THAT YOU THINK, TRUE OR NOT, HAS DONE WRONG TO YOU. Instead of dreaming of a Palestine that never was, from the River to the Sea Palestine will be free/Islamic/Arab (the last two being the actual slogan, in Arabic). Saying that this conflict is not about territory is absolutely correct. Beacause the Arabs were focused on making sure that the Jews got no land, and on destroying the Jewish State, rather than on building their own country. Both ethno-religious groups had a right to self-determination in that land. Study the findings of the Peel Commission, and the Arab revolts of 1936-1939, and everything becomes clear. Islamism is the ideology preventing peace. Panislamism and rhe doctrine of Islamic Renewal (and then see the Muslim Brotherhood since 1928) are exactly the ideologies exploited by the Nazi for their plan for the Jews in Mandated Palestine. Different ideologies, both genocidial against the Jews. Panarabism and the antizionist Soviet propaganda did the rest. Now the IRI embodies this islamism. It's really too long to discuss via comme t thoug.
Hi Elena. I looked at your bio. You are not jewish but you live in Israel. You are having a go at answering my question for your hosts. They should answer for themselves.
Midway you write that 'all nation states are born as a result of war and land dispossession'. In other words, injustice, right? But the context is that Israel advocates are asking the rest of us to support, therefore, ... war and dispossession for their benefit. Why would we?
Arguments that forfeit justice cannot work. My country has no national interest involved so I guess we should be diplomatically neutral. Less distracted, we might be able to do something useful in our region.
There is a lot more in your answer. We could take it slowly bit by bit but I think it is just protective packaging around the central thing that Israel was founded in injustice and no-one is sorry.
You truly are speaking as a “non-expert” but, as with all of your ilk, it doesn’t stem the tide of nonsense from spewing forth. Incidentally, how do you live with yourself as an Australian whose ancestors presumably “ethnically cleansed” the “indigenous people”? It must be hard for you
Your ilk are people who visit Jewish interest sites with the specific intention of pushing a pro Palestinian narrative under the guise of a faux naive “discussion”. And no, I don’t feel like revealing my ethnic identity to a stranger or answering his impertinent questions, thanks
This is more than a "jewish interest" website. Obviously it is run by jews but it is not jews talking amongst themselves, it is jews advocating Israel's cause to the British public. Possibly other matters of common concern as well. It is the same situation in Australia where I live. I am interested in the discussion but I am less and less convinced we should get involved if it is no more than a matter of defending an injustice. You might have had an answer, in any case that is the reason for asking.
If you have a point please go ahead and make it. I hope it will not be just something disdainful of arabs or moslems. There is enough of that already and it undermines the claim that there is hatred for Israel.
You are speaking in riddles. I am seriously trying to find a dialogue between jews in my country and the rest of us. Do you agree this is a good idea, and if so could you help a little more?
Perhaps the most twisted analysis possible. This ignores the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the decade before 1947 when 90% of the population of what is now Israel were driven from their agrarian villages by Zionist terror managed by BenGurion. This calculated seizure of Palestinian land and homes, accomplished by force and viciousness, has morphed into the settler ambitions and atrocities in the West Bank. That dispossession of people who have occupied the land for almost two millennia is the source of the continuous conflict, not antisemitism as a racial matter. Starting an analysis in 1947 or January 2024 is a fundamental deception.
The violence before 1948 was very much two way. Your assertion that 90% of the rural Palestinian population were driven from their villages under British mandate control is demonstrably false. Your comment is either woefully ignorant or willfully false to justify terrorist violence
Can you answer my simple question posed above then - was the founding of Israel not a gross injustice to the native peoples? That is where we need to start after all. When I have managed to get moderately well-known jewish people in my country (Australia) to answer this it is a case of ok it as unjust but they don't really care. On this basis it is hard to see why our country should support Israel diplomatically which of course it does.
About half the Jews in Israel are from Middle Eastern countries: they were kicked out in the early years. So we have a population exchange. About the same number of people (the Palestinians have greatly increased in numbers since).
There was a similar population exchange between Greece and Turkey (Muslims went from Greece to Turkey, Christians went in the opposite direction.
This guy admits to living in Australia and at the same time complains about “gross injustice to native peoples” … but only levels that accusation against the one Jewish country in the world.
Just ignore. Gibbering “Jew-movers” like this are unfortunately a dime a dozen.
You see, you tried to answer for the others but they are silent and left you in the lurch. This could a pattern, hear is another example https://michaelgawenda.substack.com/p/a-cold-jewish-morning/comments -you would have to search for the exchange between George Grosman and me. This is Michael Gawenda's substack. He is fairly well-known as a former newspaper editor and jewish advocate in Australia.
Thank you for answering me. (It is not a direct answer, which I am still hoping for, but it is related.)
So there were jews in the mid-east before the arrival of the European jews. I would venture they had been there forever just like the Palestinian arabs were. Then the invasion, followed by expulsion of the original jews, correct? This happened afterwards so it cannot be an excuse for what happened before. Futhermore, it only shows that the original ("oriental") jews also suffered as a direct result of the Zionist project.
Other than that it is just a rationalisation; honestly am I wrong?
In large measure, hatred of Israel is derivative of Hatred of the Jews. Yeah, Israel has killed some people in Gaza, but Americans killed hundreds of thousands of people in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia which were 10,000 miles from California. By contast, Gaza is adjacent to Israel. Gazan goons killed 1200 Jews on October 7. The West bank is 9 miles from he Med Sea. But how many air heads in the MSNBC crowd are familiar with maps.
I delinieated 9 discrete causes of anti Semitism. Most of the causes you have heard before. Some of my ideas are, I think, novel
https://davidgottfried.substack.com/p/nine-camouflaged-causes-of-anti-semitism
Of course it is about land and I say this as a complete non-expert. The Gaza strip is a refugee enclave into which the dispossessed natives were pushed when European jews seized their homelands. Now, sir, was this an injustice or was it not? I guess they want their land back. That would be easy to understand, without any need to postulate backward jihadi fanaticism etc etc.
This is the same point as was made in the article above. The Palestinians believe the establishment of Israel was a great injustice, therefore they want to destroy Israel and every Jewish person in it. That's why no potential land compromise will solve the conflict.
Hi. It is good to get a reply and so much the better when they give their real name.
But Shlomo, aren't you avoiding the question yourself? If you admit the injustice you undermine the point that you make. If you don't, you have to come up with an excuse and honestly I do not think there is one. If this was chess, you are in check. I hope to hear back. Regards, Robert.
In general I try to avoid long discussions in public comments, but I'll just share one thought. Some people think the establishment of Israel was good and right and just. Others think it was a terrible injustice and the nakbah. Arguing about whether Jewish settlement in Israel beginning in the 1800s and continuing in waves since then was legal and right or not will get us nowhere now. What happened in the past is over and cannot be undone. The question is what solution will best help guarantee the rights of all the people living in Israel and the Palestinian territories today. Whether you think the great great grandparents of an Israeli child should or should not have moved to Israel doesn't matter anymore- that child has the right to grow up in peace and security, and so too for the Palestinians. Arguing about long ago injustices has to stop.
Sorry to labour the point, but you say 'Some think the establishment of Israel was good and right and just' - what reasons would they give is what I am asking.
What about our host, Mr Simons? Perhaps he should give his view?
You considered the easy option often taken to avoid answering altogether but did not take it. Good. What you said is that it might have been an injustice but it does not matter. It is similar to answers that I have had from well-known advocates in my country, which I characterise as injustice yes, regret no.
You may not think this particular injustice matters but you are very much biased. If you were a judge you would have to recuse yourself. As an advocate you are doing nothing wrong but you are giving the game away by admitting you are unconcerned about injustices down to your side. Furthermore, there is no future in this argument for you because you would be forced to say that the even worse injustices that occurred only a few years earlier also don't matter.
Justice does matter. It is the most important thing.
If you enter in the realm of injustice, why not discuss the ethnic cleansing of Jews from Arab countries which affected even more people than the Nakba did? And what about the justice to be repaired to all the Jews whose properties and wealth was seized during centuries-long persecution? At least Jews in general PURCHASED lands in Ottoman Syria-Palestine and Mandatory Palestine. Working and living on a land doesn't automatically make you the owner of it. That's true for some cases. In other cases, the Arabs were expelled by the Jews but in these instances, one should always check exactly why, what happened before? Were the Jews attacked with murderous violence by the Arabs who were then expelled from their homes and villages? I'm sure in some cases no, so okay, let's evaluate the Arabs rights to the land now Israel on a case by case basis. In yet other instances, the Arabs fled voluntarily listening to their own leaders promising a defeat of the Jewish State, that did not occur ("We will throw the Jews to the Sea and you will be able to go back to your homes") ... who started the 1948 war, remind me? The Palestinians have been suffering, but mostly due to their own mistakes. It's not victim blaming or gaslighting. I truly and wholeheartedly empathize and sympathize with the Palestinians (the ones who used to identify simply as Arabs until 1964). All Nation States are born as a result of war and land dispossession. Grow up. Take your destiny in tour hands and BUILD A STATE, INSTEAD OF CONSTANTLY TRYING TO DESTROY THE STATE THAT YOU THINK, TRUE OR NOT, HAS DONE WRONG TO YOU. Instead of dreaming of a Palestine that never was, from the River to the Sea Palestine will be free/Islamic/Arab (the last two being the actual slogan, in Arabic). Saying that this conflict is not about territory is absolutely correct. Beacause the Arabs were focused on making sure that the Jews got no land, and on destroying the Jewish State, rather than on building their own country. Both ethno-religious groups had a right to self-determination in that land. Study the findings of the Peel Commission, and the Arab revolts of 1936-1939, and everything becomes clear. Islamism is the ideology preventing peace. Panislamism and rhe doctrine of Islamic Renewal (and then see the Muslim Brotherhood since 1928) are exactly the ideologies exploited by the Nazi for their plan for the Jews in Mandated Palestine. Different ideologies, both genocidial against the Jews. Panarabism and the antizionist Soviet propaganda did the rest. Now the IRI embodies this islamism. It's really too long to discuss via comme t thoug.
Hi Elena. I looked at your bio. You are not jewish but you live in Israel. You are having a go at answering my question for your hosts. They should answer for themselves.
Midway you write that 'all nation states are born as a result of war and land dispossession'. In other words, injustice, right? But the context is that Israel advocates are asking the rest of us to support, therefore, ... war and dispossession for their benefit. Why would we?
Arguments that forfeit justice cannot work. My country has no national interest involved so I guess we should be diplomatically neutral. Less distracted, we might be able to do something useful in our region.
There is a lot more in your answer. We could take it slowly bit by bit but I think it is just protective packaging around the central thing that Israel was founded in injustice and no-one is sorry.
You truly are speaking as a “non-expert” but, as with all of your ilk, it doesn’t stem the tide of nonsense from spewing forth. Incidentally, how do you live with yourself as an Australian whose ancestors presumably “ethnically cleansed” the “indigenous people”? It must be hard for you
The question about the aborigines is a fair for Australians. Most Australians know that.
Do you say it is wrong to even ask jewish Australians about the Palestinians? (If you are jewish will you not say how you look at it?)
What are you assuming my "ilk" is by the way?
I meant to put "a fair *one* for Australians".
Your ilk are people who visit Jewish interest sites with the specific intention of pushing a pro Palestinian narrative under the guise of a faux naive “discussion”. And no, I don’t feel like revealing my ethnic identity to a stranger or answering his impertinent questions, thanks
This is more than a "jewish interest" website. Obviously it is run by jews but it is not jews talking amongst themselves, it is jews advocating Israel's cause to the British public. Possibly other matters of common concern as well. It is the same situation in Australia where I live. I am interested in the discussion but I am less and less convinced we should get involved if it is no more than a matter of defending an injustice. You might have had an answer, in any case that is the reason for asking.
I did not know there was such an ilk.
And you are just a rude person.
Have you ever wondered why Indonesia is a Muslim nation?
If you have a point please go ahead and make it. I hope it will not be just something disdainful of arabs or moslems. There is enough of that already and it undermines the claim that there is hatred for Israel.
Colonizing, Colonizing, Colonizing
You are speaking in riddles. I am seriously trying to find a dialogue between jews in my country and the rest of us. Do you agree this is a good idea, and if so could you help a little more?
Perhaps the most twisted analysis possible. This ignores the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians in the decade before 1947 when 90% of the population of what is now Israel were driven from their agrarian villages by Zionist terror managed by BenGurion. This calculated seizure of Palestinian land and homes, accomplished by force and viciousness, has morphed into the settler ambitions and atrocities in the West Bank. That dispossession of people who have occupied the land for almost two millennia is the source of the continuous conflict, not antisemitism as a racial matter. Starting an analysis in 1947 or January 2024 is a fundamental deception.
The violence before 1948 was very much two way. Your assertion that 90% of the rural Palestinian population were driven from their villages under British mandate control is demonstrably false. Your comment is either woefully ignorant or willfully false to justify terrorist violence
Can you answer my simple question posed above then - was the founding of Israel not a gross injustice to the native peoples? That is where we need to start after all. When I have managed to get moderately well-known jewish people in my country (Australia) to answer this it is a case of ok it as unjust but they don't really care. On this basis it is hard to see why our country should support Israel diplomatically which of course it does.
About half the Jews in Israel are from Middle Eastern countries: they were kicked out in the early years. So we have a population exchange. About the same number of people (the Palestinians have greatly increased in numbers since).
There was a similar population exchange between Greece and Turkey (Muslims went from Greece to Turkey, Christians went in the opposite direction.
This guy admits to living in Australia and at the same time complains about “gross injustice to native peoples” … but only levels that accusation against the one Jewish country in the world.
Just ignore. Gibbering “Jew-movers” like this are unfortunately a dime a dozen.
You see, you tried to answer for the others but they are silent and left you in the lurch. This could a pattern, hear is another example https://michaelgawenda.substack.com/p/a-cold-jewish-morning/comments -you would have to search for the exchange between George Grosman and me. This is Michael Gawenda's substack. He is fairly well-known as a former newspaper editor and jewish advocate in Australia.
Thank you for answering me. (It is not a direct answer, which I am still hoping for, but it is related.)
So there were jews in the mid-east before the arrival of the European jews. I would venture they had been there forever just like the Palestinian arabs were. Then the invasion, followed by expulsion of the original jews, correct? This happened afterwards so it cannot be an excuse for what happened before. Futhermore, it only shows that the original ("oriental") jews also suffered as a direct result of the Zionist project.
Other than that it is just a rationalisation; honestly am I wrong?